Typical house construction - little clay bricks

[Jaime]

Steve G,

Basically, the idea is to have as much exposed mass in a monolithic wall (or floor) construction as possible so the nine inch blocks that Percy mentions are a good starting point, so long as they are dense and not lightweight. The hollow blocks filled with concrete and reinforced would also provide a dense monolithic structure but leaving them hollow would not. The thicker the monolithic wall, the better its capacity for absorbing heat. Make sure the inside face is plastered, rather than using plasterboard on dabs or battens though, as use of boards would create a cavity and prevent the mass of the wall being exposed. Ventilation also has a big part to play though - both passive and mechanical if necessary - especially at night when the heat of the day that has been stored in the structure is released.

However, be careful not to double up on construction - why build a concrete frame if using solid nine inch dense concrete blocks as infill? The blocks could be used as loadbearing elements in their own right, unlike a single skin of the Thai clay bricks.

Apart from the wealth of internet information, there are plenty of books on the subject. For an appraisal of some of the basics mainly from a Northern hemisphere perspective, try Ecohouse 2:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0750649046/ref=sib_dp_pt/026-1937813-9358026#reader-link

At a less technical and more academic level, there is also Amos Rapoports's thesis 'House form and Culture', which identifies cultural, rather than environmental imperatives as the real drivers behind the forms and even the technology used in traditional building. Hence the hot houses of Thailand, I guess!

[Jacka]

Jamie
I agree with you on "double up construction", even if you are right when you said about labour being cheap here in Thailand (which I begin to have a doubt, in particular in the HH area), there is time element that both builder and homeowner should be concerned with. Just think about the time spend in casting concrete columns and beams, at least a week, usually more. A good mason with a couple of helps can lay 150-200 blocks per day, that's about 14 sq. meters of wall per day per mason. If you have 2-3 masons, you can complete the load bearing elements in about 2-3 days and automatically have the walls without having to spend other two weeks on the infill brick walls.
I'd like to throw in another related subject about the look of exterior stucco after five years or so. Any comment is appreciated.

[Gutte]

Does anyone have an opinion about the Superblock that is becoming more and more popular here in Hua Hin?

I'm having a house built right now where Superblock 60 x 20 x 12,5 cm is used as filling between the concrete structure. The walls will be plastered with approx. 3 cm on both sides, making the walls 18 -19 cm thick.

I'm planning to use double glazing (5/6/5 mm) for windows and sliding doors.

For "master bedroom", the one area that will be air-conditioned 6-7 hours every night of the year, I'm thinking of putting mineral wool or similar on top of the gypsum ceiling to try to enhance the cooling and save some electricity.

Am I right or wrong? (Be honest, please!) I'd be grateful for advice.

[JimmyGreaves]

Percy are these blocks ready available in HH? How much and have you seen many other housers using these?

[ellis]

Please excuse my ignorance on this topic (I'm not a builder) but as I understand it the type of construction that you are recommending (being the use of thermal mass to keep houses cool) simply doesn't work in the tropics due to the high diurnal temperatures, i.e. mass will work if the temperatures drop rapidly at night, but in the hot tropical regions this is not the case. It's hot all the time and these heavy mass buildings will not be able to release the accumulated heat. The type of construction that works best in this type of climate (also seen in the top end of Australia) is often single skin lightweight construction - or double skin lightweight with insulation, wide overhanging eaves to keep sunlight off of glass and doors and windows that can be opened wide to catch any cooling breezes at night. Yes, the house may heat up quicker but it also sheds the heat quicker making a more comfortable environment. Also the use of light coloured roofs (steel) to reflect heat..not concrete roof tiles. I believe if you look at traditional Thai architecture it is the most relevant and sympathetic way to live without the need for airconditioners running 24/7.
Unfortunately fashion has dictated the style of modern Thai construction much the ame as occurred here in Perth Australia with the advent of "Tuscan" style house (no eaves) which is totally inappropriate for our climate
Interested to hear other comments on this.
P.S there is a wealth of information on the web on this subject of tropical construction.

[Jaime]

Have to tip the hat to you here Ellisg. You may be right about the impact of lack of significant daytime and nightime temperature differences on a construction system relying on thermal mass. I think that I personally got carried away with the details of a high thermal mass solution after initially starting the thread to challenge an advertiser's assertion that the construction of the house they were selling contributed to its cooling.

Certainly details like wide overhanging eaves are important not only for the reasons you mention but also for throwing heavy tropical rain as far from the house as possible.

I know the type of Australian houses you mean. Amongst others, Glenn Murcutt has been the most high profile trailblazer in this 're-discovery' of tropical house typologies and again, I'm sure there's lots to be found on him on the net.

Having said that, and to reiterate my own empirical evidence of actually staying in traditional teak houses in Thailand, I have found the traditional Thai house to be uncomfortably hot both night and day. Lack of any breeze to catch is a big problem when inland - not so on the coast admittedly. I have also found being beneath steel roofs extremely uncomfortable as they may well reflect some of the heat back up but they also radiate it downwards into the space, unless of course they are insulated. Interestingly, my wife's uncle has just had a house built up country. It is a typical modern Thai concrete psuedo-western house but it has a floor of thick marble slabs throughout on the ground floor and is noticeably cooler than my wife's parents' teak house next door during both day and night.

I suppose the notion of what is 'cool' is relative though.

P.S. You are fooling no-one with your profession of ignorance Ellisg - too many big words and references in there! But keep posting - this is turning into a good thread - let's keep it going because if you know more about this than me I want to learn from you!


_________________
"The man who never made a mistake never did bugger all" - Old Welsh proverb

"Why limit yourself to the death of a crummy celery stalk when you can eat a giraffe?" - PWEETA

[Burger]

A key point here, although not a technical one, is to remember that 'many' buyers come over for a cheap'ish holiday home (maybe to spend 3 months of the year) then rent out the rest of the year and maybe retire to in 10 years time.

They want a nice 3 bed bungalow on quarter of a rai for about 3M Baht.
They are not so interested in a 3.3M Baht bungalow that has double skinned red brick construction with foam infill, insulated roof, underground termite pipework system, 3-phase elec, metal conduits, underground concrete drainage as opposed to plastic etc etc.

They can not see, feel or touch this stuff (not that you'd wanna touch 3-phase ), they would rather use the 300k they save on a small pool.
Believe me 1 in 20 people ask what the wall construction is, the other 19 look at the wall and comment on the nice paint colour.

Obviously you lot know about construction as many of you are builders, architects, engineers, surveyors etc, which is great. You can ask/specify this stuff for your house.

However, if you are buying a high-end property, then I would expect the above and more, as standard.

Perhaps you could put together a 'wish list' of building materials/methods that the layman can access on here and request from their developer ?

Burger

[Jaime]

Hi Burger - Don't forget that this thread started because someone was advertising use of bricks as a factor in keeping their house cool, which was itself listed in the HHAD property section. It has developed since then into a sort of technical discussion amongst interested parties, including people looking to build their own houses.

You are right that people are looking for a cheap holiday home. I am one of those people and have bought, with my wife, the kind of single skin, bog-standard bungalow in Hua Hin that you described. F***in' hot it is too! But in the long tradition of those who dish out advice; don't do as I do - do as I say!

P.S. It is worth noting that people like me who buy at the bottom end of the market invariably end up installing some of the features described above after the event - especially simple things like insulation in the roof, just to try and reduce the load on the air con system.
_________________
"The man who never made a mistake never did bugger all" - Old Welsh proverb

"Why limit yourself to the death of a crummy celery stalk when you can eat a giraffe?" - PWEETA

[STEVE G]

Jaime wrote;
It has developed since then into a sort of technical discussion amongst interested parties, including people looking to build their own houses.

Hi Jaime;
Thanks for the reply and keep it coming, all advice on house construction greatly appreciated from all.

[ellis]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Jaime but my knowledge on this topic is only what I have gleaned through research not personal experience so it is largely academic.
It is interesting that your own experience seems to indicate that the traditional architecture may not be as effective as some modern designs, but then they may not always have been sited as appropriately as possible, i.e. using orientation correctly and applying proper solar passive principles. I also take your point that inland the breezes are not that easy to catch. It may be that the marble floors, as long as they dont receive any direct sunlight to re-radiate heat, give a more cooling sensation than timber floors. Does the marble floored house you refer to have any aircon or fans?
Certainly with the lightweight construction they are best with high ceilings (at least 3m I would suggest), insulated roofspace and ceiling fans to keep the air moving (this evaporative affect is usually very effective).
I would like to think that it is possible to remain comfortable without the aircon running 24/7 but this may be unrealistic?
I've included a couple of references that you may find interesting on tropical construction:
http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/yourhome/technical/fs74a.htm
http://www.troppoarchitects.com.au/
http://www.sbe.com.au/frames/framemainpages/fr_design.html (the Broome competition page)
cheers
Ellis Green

[Burger]

Would red brick construction, rendered both sides, not be the best option for keeping the house cool compared to the other traditional methods of Thai construction ie: wood panelled walls, 'ship-lap' panelling or corrogated metal panelling ?

Double skinned cavity red brick, thermalite blocks etc are not used in 'traditional' Thai construction.

Burger

[STEVE G]

Hi Ellis,
I have a house up in Nong Ki which we had built by a local builder. It is typical for the area with a hard wood timber frame, a tiled concrete floor, brick walls downstairs and timber upstairs with a tiled roof. We have a lot of windows but you don’t get much breeze as there are large trees all around. Downstairs is really not too hot and a fan is sufficient, but the upstairs is not comfortable and I think some aircon is required, but it would need insulating first. I think it should be possible to build something bearable in Thailand, once you get used to the heat. That’s as long as you are not like the American neighbor I had in Indonesia, who used to run every aircon in the house at maximum setting 24 hours a day, but then his company was paying the bill.

[caller]

Can I ask a question as a layman?

How important is the quality of the work? I'm not gonna name names, but in May I drove on to one development, south of the town, which I had looked at with interest before when there just a couple of showhouses. Now, lots of houses were being put up.

I was amazed at how poorly what appeared to be breeze blocks were being put up between concrete posts (I think thats what they were?). I remember doing basic brickwork at school and I would have got a mighty slap by the teacher if I had produced such work.

There were gaps below, beneath and to the side of blocks, even with cement/mortar filling. they were not very level and some were placed on top of each other, not the classic "brick-style". But is that the norm? If its going to have an outer or inner coat of whatever, or both, is is such a big deal? If I was buyer, how worried should I be?

Went to other places - its certainly good to visit unannounced - and saw much beter work.

Burger - some of us do ask about how places are built, but when the places are up and there are no othere being built to look at, you can only rely on the agent. Luckily, some will provide the technical data when asked to.
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I know nothing

[Jaime]

Great links Ellisg. One thing worth noting is that the solutions your links illustrate are very contemporary and incorporate a completely holistic approach to the environmental impact and performance of the house.

They demonstrate a commitment to long term environmental objectives - one that is distinctly lacking in Thailand as a whole. I see that as a problem, along with the usual reactionary response to the contemporary nature of the forms that are created. They are not traditionally Thai in the way that your earlier post suggested and which most people would identify with. Another common feature of these type of tropical houses is the degree of physical openness and necessary acceptance of sharing the spaces with flying insects! I think their universal practicality in terms of meeting the aspirations that people have about living in houses now has to be questioned, as beautiful as they are and they almost have the feel of experimental structures about them.

Going back to your question, the uncle's house has air con and fans but they do not seem to need to use them as much. It does have very high ceilings (concrete floor above) as well though.
_________________
"The man who never made a mistake never did bugger all" - Old Welsh proverb

"Why limit yourself to the death of a crummy celery stalk when you can eat a giraffe?" - PWEETA

[Jaime]