How Do You Handle Living Here?

[kendo]

Ed,i am married to a Thai and we live in the U.K. My wife has been here for nearly 3 years, and works in large pub restarant here English is 100% fluent.She thinks alot of British people can be very rude and complaining, so i think that is horses for corses.
I have spent many weeks,in a village up north in Surin, me and the wife Built a large house on her farm land, we had 20 buiders working 7 days a week and the wife had to deal with everything as nobody could speak any english i just told her wot we wanted to our standards.I felt very isolated up there, and had to deal with being eaten alive, and the dangers of snakes,scorpions,and semi wild dogs everywhere.I used to drive 50k to Surin city to go and eat in a farang bar.That is wot i would call quite challenging for any farang.Hua Hin is so beautifull place and easy just to relax and enjoy if you cant handle that i think you should maybe sit down and talk to some old hands and there friends and learn a little bit about Thai ways.Two things i will tell you is Thai time is very different from western time and Thai promises are not very reliable.One day i will live in Hua Hin i think it is the best place i have ever been to in Thailand and i really cant wait but my problem is that i have a career in England that i cant leave at this time i do envy you, just relax....have a beer...and then ...another one...

[Jockey]

I think Dawns post was spot on.

[bradders]

[johnnyk]

edwina, did you know anything about this country before you came? package holidays don't count.
anywhere is miserable if you don't adapt.
going nuts about the natives is a poor way of adapting so lose the anger and get with the program or you'll be v-e-r-y unhappy.

[edwinadanish]

Thank you everyone for your kind and supportive words. I do understand and accept that Thailand is far better than worse than many other countries - certainly the UK and Denmark which I know best and lived in most of my life.

Yes, I have no other experience of Asia other than Thailand and I have only been here for 3 years - a few months in HH and before tht in Pattaya and Phuket and Bangkok.

For me, the issues I think about a lot are the character traits and thee are what upset me the most.

I can forgive and totally understand ignorance to many things - how could they know if they have not the education we were lucky to have.

But, the trouble starts for me at the deeper level.

The psople here more than any ther country have ever been to including other Asian countries briefly, do not WANT to learn anything. So many people here tell me not to bother teaching Thais or explaining anything because they are simly NOT nterested. The result of this is that the country is certainly getting quickly left behnd its neighbours. I read somewhere on the news that the average number of books read each year here is 1 or 2 per person on average compared to say 80 in Vietnam. That is very worrying and shows no desire at any level to improve oneself.

Following from thisis the fact that peole all the time make excusesfro the country and the people as on this site where all the words revolve around 'it's their country and thir ays, so just accept it'. WHY? Nowhere else does this happen. Foreigners are welcomed to many other countries - just look at SIngapore or the Middle East to name two areas and historically look at how all the colonies were made. I am nt saying god or bad for colonies but the locals did gain outside ideas and culture along with the many downsides.

THailand is proud of not being colonised but what ahs it done to sibstitute for this? Every country needs external help and cultures yet Thailand continually pushes away foreigners and foreign companies. All it wants if you look at its policies is retirees. THat's fine if ou are over 50 and don't want to work but as someone said earlier, woring helps give purpose.

So if you want to work, the government makes it nearly impossible with al the red tape, beaurocracy, rules and taxes - that I ahve first hand experience of with many foreign friends here. Why on earth would a country insist on a foreigner having 4 Thais to teach in his company for each froeigner working, then tax them on a minimum income even if they pay themselves nothing, insist they finsih their premises before they can even aply for a work permit so it has to sit empty for weeks etc etc.

Then ot cap it all, we are supposed to say to ourselves all the time that we are 'guests'. I am not guest if I contribute so greatly to their economy, I am afraid.

When I lived in the UK I ws a foreigner but I was still entitled to all the benefots and like so many foreigners in the UK now do not feel like a foreigner. In Thailand you are alwys remined that you are a foreigner.

Can anyone here imagine being in a shop or bar in theit home country and hee a sales assistant say to another - 'that's for the foreigner over there' or 'the foreigner wants to get a refund'....? That would never hapen yet ehre the Thais are obsessed with we foreigners and take seemingly every opportunity to charge us more and make us stand out. Just driving ehre and getting stopped for being a foreigner shoes this, a trip to a country park is payable only by us and even a naughty massage for the men in BKK I hear has a foreigner surcharge.

So this to me is pure racism, not 'their culture'.. The driving accident where the foreigner always has to pay is racist exploitation too as is the fact that a foreigner cannot buy land. Many try to excuse this but to me basic economics tell me this is nothing more than protctionism. COnsider the difference if foreigners could buy land? All that would be different is that there would be more demand in some areas and prices would be slightly higher in certain areas. Right now the wealthy Thais, Thai Chinese etc have so much land that the prices are already high coupled wit the fact that foreigners own about as much land as they want via alternative methods. The law only causes more opportunity for fraud and deception and corruption Right now there are many foreigners with huge land holdngs via nominees yet the government turns a blind eye. Why?

The answer in my opinion is that all these confusions just like the traffic signs that are there to put you in the wrong lane so they can fine you and the fact that all the attempts by foreign consultants to streamine the BKK traffic ve been mysteriously mislaid is because the naton needs its corruption opportunites and backhander deals.

I see a deal and commission in every deal here at evry level and that in itself is not a bad thing but what is is that the corruption corrupts itself so to speak and we se the airport syndrome, Thaksin and so many other huge graft issues where the wealthy totally exploit the rest.

So we se that the deity tharules here is money above all else and the people will lie, cheat and steal - do anything for it. I was brought up to understand right and wrong but I am yet to meet a local here (Thai or foreigner in business for some time) who had any sense of principles. Along with repsponsibility, initiative, reliability and trust, they do not appear in the Thai dictionary or do they?

Finaly (sorry long rant) the most depressing thing here is the way al of the above is perpetuated by the people who could do somuch to change it. I have no hi-so friends or connections but I hear frommany others that the wealthy never give to charities, never help the poor and I certainly se no attempts to educate the common people. You cannot give fish to the poor child forever, you have to teach her to catch fish but when did we ever see any attempts at such education. Thai educaton stndards are very very low it would seem an noone cares which is more worrying.

The future is bleak indeed as far as I can see. Thailand is a beautiful country with beautiful people and I do like livig here overall but I do worry about these deep things. In a few years there wil be a complete cultural void due to the act that the average Thai only wants immediate gratification - phones, TV, cars, food and entertainment - becuse he and she are not told of anything different. All across Asia, other countries copete to grow and attract investment from China, HK, Malaysia to Vietnam but Thailand sits there and says 'mai pen rai'..... I see tis coming back to haunt the nation very serously and tis is what troubles me the most.

So you see that I accept the way things are her and I accept I cannot change it but I worry things show little sign of changing because the foregners with ideas are ignored and the peole in ower here have no personal interest in changing the sad status quo....

Does anyone agree with any of this or am I being too cynical and missing the point?

I actually hope not just for the purpose of this discussion but also formy sanity that there is another side to all this I have missed. I also would like to hear of ayone else fels the same of course and that I am not crazy> So I am hapy to be endorsed or argued with...!

[edwinadanish]

After I wrote the last post I was just reding the news on the Bangkok Post and I see this article:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/topstories.php?id=127000

The final sentence about us 'all being responsible' sums up exactly where I see the problem lying too. As long as 'mai pen rai' prevails, nothing will change...

[richard]

Edwina

Who wants change life here and what can we do about it if we do?

I live here and respect their culture but I don't want it westernised

Methinks you need to chill out and spend some time here

Let the country evolve at it's own pace. If you don't like it move on

It will come but may take many years

CHILL
_________________
Why does my head feel so bad why does my soul feel so bad - Moby (Dick)
Enjoy the silence, enjoy the silence, enjoy, enjoy, enjoy, enjoy the silence (Digweed)


Khun Richard of Yorkshire (Halifax) and Hua Hin

[johnnyk]

edwina, i understand what you are saying from your last long post.
but if you have been here for 3 years and you are still angry/upset/frustrated about the country and its people then perhaps you should move on.
i think most falang who live here with any success realize that mai bin lai is the only way. its their country, their culture and their way of doing things. its not up to us to change them and they aren't going to change because we want them to or think they should.
in the end they do it their way for them and we have to adapt.
try not to let things get under your skin, life's too short.

[norm]

My wife made a observation the other day when I was b!tch!ng about the drivers being so inconsiderate. She said she thought the Thais are raised to be so tolerant of others that they tend to do things without thinking about the consequences to the people around them, as they should be tolerant also.

So in order to go with the flow you are going to have to learn to be much more tolerant of people than you are in other places.

I find there are 2 or 3 things that are really annoying but become rather insignificant when compared with so many good things.

But having lived her full time for only 18 months maybe we are still in the honeymoon mode. Personally I can't think of anywhere I would rather be. When in doubt give any Thai a smile and you will get a bigger one back, can't think of anywhere else that is true.

I think Dawns post summed it all up nicely.

[lindosfan1]

Edwina what you said ties in with another thread. When you emigrate to another country, you adapt to the laws and ways of that country. I can agree with some of the things you said but it is not our place to try to alter the system. This is a wonderful country with beautiful people that is why I am here not to change things. Relax and enjoy.
_________________
Woke up this morning breathing I thought this is a good start to the day.

[The understudy]

[quote="edwinadanish"]Thank you everyone for your kind and supportive words. I do understand and accept that Thailand is far better than worse than many other countries - certainly the UK and Denmark which I know best and lived in most of my life.

Yes, I have no other experience of Asia other than Thailand and I have only been here for 3 years - a few months in HH and before tht in Pattaya and Phuket and Bangkok.

For me, the issues I think about a lot are the character traits and thee are what upset me the most.

I can forgive and totally understand ignorance to many things - how could they know if they have not the education we were lucky to have.

But, the trouble starts for me at the deeper level.

The psople here more than any ther country have ever been to including other Asian countries briefly, do not WANT to learn anything. So many people here tell me not to bother teaching Thais or explaining anything because they are simly NOT nterested. The result of this is that the country is certainly getting quickly left behnd its neighbours. I read somewhere on the news that the average number of books read each year here is 1 or 2 per person on average compared to say 80 in Vietnam. That is very worrying and shows no desire at any level to improve oneself.

Following from thisis the fact that peole all the time make excusesfro the country and the people as on this site where all the words revolve around 'it's their country and thir ays, so just accept it'. WHY? Nowhere else does this happen. Foreigners are welcomed to many other countries - just look at SIngapore or the Middle East to name two areas and historically look at how all the colonies were made. I am nt saying god or bad for colonies but the locals did gain outside ideas and culture along with the many downsides.

THailand is proud of not being colonised but what ahs it done to sibstitute for this? Every country needs external help and cultures yet Thailand continually pushes away foreigners and foreign companies. All it wants if you look at its policies is retirees. THat's fine if ou are over 50 and don't want to work but as someone said earlier, woring helps give purpose.

So if you want to work, the government makes it nearly impossible with al the red tape, beaurocracy, rules and taxes - that I ahve first hand experience of with many foreign friends here. Why on earth would a country insist on a foreigner having 4 Thais to teach in his company for each froeigner working, then tax them on a minimum income even if they pay themselves nothing, insist they finsih their premises before they can even aply for a work permit so it has to sit empty for weeks etc etc.

Then ot cap it all, we are supposed to say to ourselves all the time that we are 'guests'. I am not guest if I contribute so greatly to their economy, I am afraid.

When I lived in the UK I ws a foreigner but I was still entitled to all the benefots and like so many foreigners in the UK now do not feel like a foreigner. In Thailand you are alwys remined that you are a foreigner.

Can anyone here imagine being in a shop or bar in theit home country and hee a sales assistant say to another - 'that's for the foreigner over there' or 'the foreigner wants to get a refund'....? That would never hapen yet ehre the Thais are obsessed with we foreigners and take seemingly every opportunity to charge us more and make us stand out. Just driving ehre and getting stopped for being a foreigner shoes this, a trip to a country park is payable only by us and even a naughty massage for the men in BKK I hear has a foreigner surcharge.

So this to me is pure racism, not 'their culture'.. The driving accident where the foreigner always has to pay is racist exploitation too as is the fact that a foreigner cannot buy land. Many try to excuse this but to me basic economics tell me this is nothing more than protctionism. COnsider the difference if foreigners could buy land? All that would be different is that there would be more demand in some areas and prices would be slightly higher in certain areas. Right now the wealthy Thais, Thai Chinese etc have so much land that the prices are already high coupled wit the fact that foreigners own about as much land as they want via alternative methods. The law only causes more opportunity for fraud and deception and corruption Right now there are many foreigners with huge land holdngs via nominees yet the government turns a blind eye. Why?

The answer in my opinion is that all these confusions just like the traffic signs that are there to put you in the wrong lane so they can fine you and the fact that all the attempts by foreign consultants to streamine the BKK traffic ve been mysteriously mislaid is because the naton needs its corruption opportunites and backhander deals.

I see a deal and commission in every deal here at evry level and that in itself is not a bad thing but what is is that the corruption corrupts itself so to speak and we se the airport syndrome, Thaksin and so many other huge graft issues where the wealthy totally exploit the rest.

So we se that the deity tharules here is money above all else and the people will lie, cheat and steal - do anything for it. I was brought up to understand right and wrong but I am yet to meet a local here (Thai or foreigner in business for some time) who had any sense of principles. Along with repsponsibility, initiative, reliability and trust, they do not appear in the Thai dictionary or do they?

Finaly (sorry long rant) the most depressing thing here is the way al of the above is perpetuated by the people who could do somuch to change it. I have no hi-so friends or connections but I hear frommany others that the wealthy never give to charities, never help the poor and I certainly se no attempts to educate the common people. You cannot give fish to the poor child forever, you have to teach her to catch fish but when did we ever see any attempts at such education. Thai educaton stndards are very very low it would seem an noone cares which is more worrying.

The future is bleak indeed as far as I can see. Thailand is a beautiful country with beautiful people and I do like livig here overall but I do worry about these deep things. In a few years there wil be a complete cultural void due to the act that the average Thai only wants immediate gratification - phones, TV, cars, food and entertainment - becuse he and she are not told of anything different. All across Asia, other countries copete to grow and attract investment from China, HK, Malaysia to Vietnam but Thailand sits there and says 'mai pen rai'..... I see tis coming back to haunt the nation very serously and tis is what troubles me the most.

So you see that I accept the way things are her and I accept I cannot change it but I worry things show little sign of changing because the foregners with ideas are ignored and the peole in ower here have no personal interest in changing the sad status quo....

Does anyone agree with any of this or am I being too cynical and missing the point?

I actually hope not just for the purpose of this discussion but also formy sanity that there is another side to all this I have missed. I also would like to hear of ayone else fels the same of course and that I am not crazy> So I am hapy to be endorsed or argued with...![/quote]

Hi there Edwina

I can understand you completely the Massage you are trying to bring across to the Thais. I'm a foreign born Thai with a Western Educationbut I did my Bachlors Degree @ Stamford University just ouside the doors of Hua Hin and that gave me some expirience that I never forget. I know many Thai's who are either born in Thailand or abroad with a High western education and come back to Thailand trying to change the way of living of their own Thais. If Thais having a hard Time to force their own people to change than it's almost impossible for foreigners to Change Thai peoples ways. In the end those Highly educated Thais resign in their faith of forcing their country to change and adapt to the pace of Thai living the "Mai pen Rai" scheme and use their knowledge in other fields. Some others couldn't adapt and moved to the USA or elsewhere to make a living.
I want to say that "If Thais are not willing to learn and change from other Thais than no one can force it upon them."
For my part I had givien up trying to change my country for the better the Hard way (in the sortest of Time). It's far more better to relax and chill than hassle and chase the Turtoise (other countries in the region. Maybe the Thais wake up start a arallly in Changes again befroe haeding to the mai pen rai habit.

Your's The understudy!!!
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"Working HARDER make it BETTER Moving FASTER Makes us STRONGER"

[johnnyk]

Let's not forget that despite all its "faults" Thailand pulled itself from a true 3rd world country to an Asian economic leader in about 20 years.
In the 1980s it was the fastest-growing economy in the world and I'm sure Thais and those expats who have been here for 20+ years would tell us the country has changed immeasurably in that time.
And it was accomplished without being a basket-case dependent on foreign aid to get even the smallest things done.

[buksida]

Edwina, you're singing my song there with most of your points but I would still rather live in this country and accept its faults than the one I was born in.

Don't think you'll find utopia anywhere on this earth anymore.
_________________
I've got a bad feeling about this

[ADW]

There was a comment about Thais not wanting to learn / read - something like that (sorry can't do that quote thing)....

Anyway - all I can say to that is, you're meeting the wrong people!

I've been working with Thais full time for the last 4 years or so. Many of them go to study on their day off (they only get one a week too), some I know teach on their day off at universities.

The high school education system has been changing for the better over the past few years, it will take time, but they are getting there.

You say that they are not interested to learn or you try to teach them. Maybe you are trying the wrong way and it makes them feel stupid.

I feel honoured to be living here. My Thai friends introduce me to others as 'she is Thai already!'

Maybe consider you are the problem, your attitude. Not the Thai people.

[sandman67]

mate, theres a book available from most bookshops called "No Cure For A Thailand Fever".

Its mostly about relationships but does also give you a fair basic briefing on the underlying culture / mindset of the average Thai you meet....not the wealthy BKK rich set.....the locals.

I found it helped a lot in understanding how and why things work here.

Read some history books on Thailand/Siam and the "Great Game" period of western history (most relevant about 1880 onwards) and you will also get an idea of why the Thai culture s so independent minded (and why there are lots of shrines to Rama V).

The basic rule is you are from a completely alien culture. Assimilate and have fun, or struggle and drown in it.
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