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sandman67
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Joined: 11 Jul 2007
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 Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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heres something from the Sunday Times online edition:
| Quote: | Gary Glitter - mad, bad or just dangerous to know?
Minette Marrin
Gary Glitter is a most unlikely martyr. With his white goatee, hinting at shameless, perverted goatishness, he has been convicted of some revolting paedophile crimes, both here and abroad, including the sexual assault of two little girls in Vietnam.
The details the tabloids have luxuriated in are loathsome and even if the motives of the home secretary - in hastily proposing a populist “Glitter law” to restrict sex offenders’ travel - are not disinterested, there is nothing wrong with her suggestion. Child abusers should be restrained. Few people can doubt that Glitter should be put on the sex offenders’ register for the rest of his life and closely watched, or that other countries are entitled to keep him out.
All the same, Glitter is suffering media martyrdom far beyond his deserts; he is a latterday St Sebastian, lashed to the post of public contempt and pierced again and again with the furious arrows of misdirected indignation.
The force that drives this indignation is not just horror; it is confusion. Everyone agrees that Glitter and offenders like him are dangerous to know but no one is sure, any longer, whether he is bad or mad. Perhaps he deliberately and wickedly did what he did - and the shameless cunning of many paedophiles suggests that - or perhaps he could not control himself, or even understand why he should control himself.
Scientific evidence seems to be growing by the month to suggest that people are not equally responsible for what they do. Individual biology has a large part to play in destiny, as do environment and the complex symbiosis of the two. Some people’s brain structure and brain chemistry may make them less able to control their impulses, more inclined to aggression, less able to understand their own motives or less able to understand the feelings or even the objective reality of other people. This may be compounded by bad childhood experiences with damaged parents which themselves alter brain pathways.
If so, the foundation stone of western morality - the idea that we are all equally responsible for what we do and all equally culpable for our crimes - is being eroded by biology. This process of erosion has begun fairly recently and is gathering speed. It is profoundly alarming.
Glitter is just one conspicuous scapegoat for this increasing anxiety about crime and personal responsibility. He is being punished, above and beyond his offences, for our own loss of moral conviction in the face of serious crime. He is the victim of a communal panic - not just about paedophilia but also about crime and punishment generally.
Some people feel that no punishment is harsh enough for a child abuser. Others believe that the abusers were often themselves abused and deserve pity. Some people, such as Glitter himself, feel that when a man has done his time he has, in the meaningless phrase, served his debt to society. This attitude enrages others and some cry out for castration, chemical if not physical.
One common feeling is that if a man wants to do something so disgusting as rape a tiny child, or a baby, he is by definition mad or at least extremely abnormal mentally. But in this case of paedophilia, curiously madness doesn’t seem to be considered much of an excuse.
Experts don’t seem to agree either. The American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM) lists paedophilia as a mental disorder and the US Supreme Court has upheld the idea of paedophilia as a mental abnormality.
However, there are those - both respectable experts and paedophile apologists - who argue that paedophilia should be removed from this list of mental disorders, just as homosexuality was removed in the 1970s. There is, apparently, some evidence that between 20%-25% of the supposedly normal male population feel sexually attracted to children, according at least to a discussion in the US Archives of Sexual Behaviour of 2002, and react to “paedophilic” stimuli.
This might suggest that there is nothing so very abnormal about paedophile desires, just as other fantasies of violence and revenge are common. It’s true, too, that other societies have tolerated sex between adults and prepubescent children, although I cannot think of any which has regarded sex with babies with equanimity.
There seems to be little or no agreement about what causes paedophilia. The old theory that child abuse itself was an important factor has fallen by the scientific wayside. The existence of a cycle of sexual abuse from generation to generation has not been established. Some studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of the brain suggest that paedophilic men tend to have several differences in brain structure from other men and have one or more neurological characteristics at birth that could increase the likelihood of paedophilia.
However, for every one of these studies there is a crowd of experts to disagree with it. The only point upon which most experts seem to agree is that there is no treatment which can cure paedophilia. The disorder is chronic and lifelong.
Therapies designed to prevent convicted paedophiles from harming children again have little success, according to the expert literature I’ve seen. However, the justice department does not have readily available figures on recidivism among child sex offenders. I should have thought this interesting and important statistic would have been well worth knowing.
In the light of all this ignorance and uncertainty, the public hounding of the ghastly Glitter has been unforgivable. His chances of offending are probably high; he does need to be closely watched for the rest of his life and probably needs to be protected from a vengeful public. If that proves too expensive or too difficult - there are 30,000 sex offenders who need much more surveillance than they get - he will have to be locked up indefinitely.
Whether he can’t or won’t control his taste for children, others will have to control it for him. But it is wrong, given how little we understand about personal responsibility, to treat him harshly and to vilify him, just because we are anxious about that very lack of understanding. |
I dont agree with some of it, which seems overly emotive (references to babies for example, and the pedo's cant be rehabilitated tripe), but she makes a few points that make you think. Nobody is arguing that he isnt a pedo....
but
Also found out today from another online source that The News of the World paid both of the witnesses in Glitter's Vietnam case "interview fees" BEFORE he was convicted....and their story changed between initial interview and after that payment.......
in the UK that would mean aquittal for tainted testimony.
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kendo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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I can't believe this man came through the airport smiling i think he has forgotten that £1000 pounds compensation saved his arse from a fireing squad, he has a previous conviction in this country, so has proven allready that he is a repeat offender, he needs to be castrated and to report to a police station daily. 
Kendo. |
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caller
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| sargeant wrote: | Yes Mags there are not enough secure units but that doesn’t mean there should NOT be more built it’s the PC brigade and the excuse makers that have led to this situation in the first place
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I think it was down to cost actually, as Maggie followed Ronnies actions in the US, despite all the consequences being already known and this was well before HRA/PC whatever, became the latest thing. Some of the old ones not far from me (Epsom) are now very nice housing.
I hate to say this, but why would PG be locked up in any case? His crime in the UK was having images of children that on a scale of seriousness, warranted a 4 month sentence. He served 2.
Whatever happened in Vietnam happened, but I think its safe to assume from what was reported, that the evidence gathering / trial / outcome / sentence was not conducted in the way it would have been in the west, so the UK Govt. has little option than to accept the jurisdiction of the Country concerned and that matter is now closed - whats the alernative? Unless he does get given the legal right to challenge it, which I could imagine him winning (if done from the uk)?
Hate to say this, but on the scale of Pedo risk, I would say he's on the low side?
Just trying to rationalise this.
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sargeant
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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SM I have read your posted article I have to admit I did stop taking it seriously when I read the words MARTYR and SCAPEGOAT 
When it started quoting so called science as APPARRENTLY and SUPPOSEDLY I was almost done but I kept going until I read psychiatry and psychology
To me psychiatry and psychology are to science what creationism and intelligent design are to Darwins theory of evolution. Two of the three cannot be proven by factual experiments.
As for the MRI scan crap I have upstairs a book by a forensic psychologist (unfortunately) who examined 10 to 15 serial killers brains by xray or having the brain physically in her hands (now thats the way to do it for me) her conclusion no nil difference to anybody else.
Geoffry Dahmer who ate his victims and had 2 heads in his fridge had not one but 2 defence psychiatrists say he was mentally ill the prosecution had 2 that said he was as sane as you and me (well me at least  ) so much for psychiatry being an exact science.
My conclusion to the article posted an apologist piece of cobblers designed to lessen what Gadd is guilty off and to give people a guilt trip and defocus from the real need to deal with the problem
Caller the news of the world are scum to endanger a fair trial for a scoop is disgusting it does not however detract from the fact that he was already under surveillance in Vietnam as he had shortly before scuttled out of Cambodia with the police breathing down his neck and Thailand if my memory serves me correctly.Trust me he is not low risk he is a cast iron certainty if he gets the chance
I agree it was money by the way its just that the PCs and excuse makers handed it to the money men on a plate
I would like to point out to people Thailand has its own specifically designated pedophile police squad
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Big Boy
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Probably a bit controversial, but here goes anyway. Its nothing I haven't said on other threads.
When I first came to Thailand in the late 80's it was normal for every bar to have a 12/13 year old girl for hire. These girls were placed in to work by their parents, who were hoping for huge rewards for their daughter's virginity. The entire process was out in the open. These girls were looked after by the bar owners. They felt it their duty to ensure the girls lost their virginity to somebody suitable (obviously they took a good chunk of the payment). It was not uncommon for these girls to lose their virginity at least 6 times - each time attracting an enhanced fee.
These fresh faced girls were usually very attractive (I have to state at this point that I never delved). Because it was going on openly, nobody seemed to blink an eyelid. It was just a service offered by the Asian sex trade.
One our friends was married to a Farang when she was 14. He divorced her at 16 and married another 14 year old. Why, if it was so bad, did the Thai authorities allow it?
I've also been walking down the street when I've been propositioned by 10 year old boys (no I didn't accept those offers either). Again, these kids have been sent out by their parents trying to get money from the walking ATMs.
You are probably wondering what is my point. Well, my point is that these problems have been created in Asia by the Asians trying to get hold of Farang money. It is only in recent years that the likes of Thailand started to get bad publicity, so the authorities have started to do something about it.
How many of these Paedophiles would have crossed the line if it hadn't been made so easy for them in the first place? Going back to Sarge's (I think) analogy, how many have been tempted to steal, but have thought better of it because they might get caught? Probably most of us at some time in our lives, but we aren't thieves because we didn't do it. When I first started coming to Thailand, there was no (enforced) penalty for having sex with minors. At that time they were tourists having a good time. It is only in recent years that they have been branded Paedophiles in Asia.
Why do they come to Asia? Its because that's where they went astray in the first place, and they are coming back for more. Unfortunately for them, it is no longer politically correct.
The other thing to consider is the so called lasting damage to these kids. In the Western world, maybe that would be true. In Asia, kids going out to work at an early age is common. They seem to (mentally) mature at a much earlier age. My wife was forced out to work from the age of 8. Earlier, I spoke about our friend who had married a Farang when she was 14. She'd actually been selling her body from the age of 12 and really enjoyed what she was doing. Getting married took her away from that life. Nowadays, with the money her ex-husband gave to her, she is set for life, and will never have to work again. I wish I could have retired at 16.
Having said all of the above, I do not condone Paedophilia in any way, I am just trying to put a different perspective on what has happened in the past, and why these guys keep coming back for more.
The Asian community may be appalled these days, but they should really take a step backwards and look at themselves if they want to know why it keeps happening in their own backyard - they invited them in the first place.
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migrant
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Guess
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Location: BangSaphan. Laurasia. Sub thumb
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| caller wrote: |
Hate to say this, but on the scale of Pedo risk, I would say he's on the low side?
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If you refer to the risk of him taking a child by force to satisfy his lusts then I would tend to agree based on his track record. I haven't seen it mentioned on this thread but I think the children in Vietnam were prostitutes and therefore not physically forced into anything.
If he was offered the services by a pedophile ring in the UK then I believe he would indulge. I don't see too much of a distinction here.
He has been convicted more than once and is a risk to some degree.
I really don't see what relevance the bad versus mad argument has. If we are discussing what actions should be taken to prevent further offenses then the reason for the crimes are irrelevant or, is it retribution that people are seeking.
This whole concept of attempting to determine if criminals are mad or not, to allow the correct judgment be made is full of holes. Leading criminologists cannot agree. The science is in its infancy.
I am not aware of any Jekyll and Hyde type of character outside of fiction. Everybody no matter how crazy has an amount of control over there actions. Some do not have sufficient will to stop themselves doing what they no to be wrong.
How can another human being possibly judge that one individual had no control and another did.
Until we can prove otherwise, these offenders must be kept under control. If a dog bites it is given a muzzle to wear, not a very expensive psychoanalytic investigation.
I do not condemn the people who do study criminology but I do not believe it has any place yet in the treatment of criminals and at best can only be used as an aid to investigation.
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sandman67
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: |
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Sarge
| Quote: | | forensic psychologist (unfortunately) who examined 10 to 15 serial killers brains by xray or having the brain physically in her hands (now thats the way to do it for me) her conclusion no nil difference to anybody else. |
two points:
first off, a forensic psychologist wouldn't be able to tell the difference between any brain. They are not trained in analytical biological sciences, such as a pathologist is. They are trained in analytical psychology.... thats like asking a man who makes car seat covers to explain how a highly tuned racing engine works in detail.....completely different fields.
"
Second, the fact that with all the clever scientists and technology in the world the human race have NEVER come close to simulating the complexity of the human brain, or even a sodding mouse brain, should tell you something.
Looking at a brain will tell you sod all about how it works. Look at it with X Rays....same result. Tells you sod all. You need an extremely complex and sensitive array of constantly running electronic impulse sensors before you even start to see whats going on. So looking at a dead brain tells you....sod all! (It should also tell you that the forensic psychologist is a QUACK).
When Steven Hawking dies you could take out his brain, stick it in a jar, put it next to Einsteins.....what would you see? Two virtually identical grey blobs.....one of which was locked in a body that didnt work.....both look the same. Now put Einsteins brain next to a mental patients....guess what...still no difference. Wheel out a pathologist and ask them.... they will tell you that you cant tell the difference just by looking at the outside. Its what happens when its alive and all them signals are firing you get to tell who is Einstein and who is Ted Bundy.
Guess
| Quote: | | I am not aware of any Jekyll and Hyde type of character outside of fiction. Everybody no matter how crazy has an amount of control over there actions. Some do not have sufficient will to stop themselves doing what they no to be wrong. |
"Jekyll and Hyde" - a person suffering from split personality disorder can have a benign and non-benign character split, either being unaware of the other. Plenty of documented instances, although such extremes are rare.
Tourettes sufferers have no control over physical or verbal ticks. Some other OCD sufferers have no control over their compulsive actions. Take that further and some mental patients have no control over their whole personalities or the way they react to stimuli....and there are a good few who no matter how long you tried explaining that murder was wrong just could not ever understand you.....just like if you spoke in some alien language.
The point of all this is that the human brain is THE most complex biomechanical organ on the planet, and after a hundred or so years of study we only know the basics of how it works. Theres a whole big bit of the brain they havent got a danny about what it does....or how it works.
Mr G is sick mentally by our modern understanding of social morality and boilogy...so yes keep him under watch, and if drugs work give him them. Ensure he takes them if he wants to stay at liberty.
What we dont do is hound him, start baying for his blood, or start shouting about how he should be hung or castrated. That crap belongs where it is....in our past....along with putting mad people in the stocks, laughing at the village idiot, making kids wear dunce hats, and shooting soldiers with post traumatic shock syndrome for cowardice.
One more point....one wrong bump on the noggin, one small bit of damage to the wrong bit....and you too can be a Geoff Dahmer, a Peter Sutcliffe, or even the next Mr Gadd. Things stop working right up in the old noodle due to a nasty fall and hey presto you are a killer, a rapist, a wife beater/eater....doesnt even take a bump.....too much stress and ping....."postal" shooter.
So maybe we all shouldn't be so keen to condemn others for their sicknesses....as tomorrow that might be you!
If you or any rent a crowd do want to burn something do the whole UK a big favour....sod off down to Wapping and burn down the News of The World, Sun, Star and Daily Express offices. Burn all of the lying hypocritical scum that work there as journos and managers.....
....THAT would make the UK a lot safer than hounding one sad old fart like Glitter.
 [/b]
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What, me....the 13th Duke of Wimbourne, alone in a town full of nubile young ladies....with my reputation? .....Tally ho!
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margaretcarnes
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: Gary Glitter refuses to board connecting flight in Bangkok |
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BB and Sandman - very sensible comments IMO. Although the Times article does, I agree, get a bit too namby pamby.
But Guess - sorry, if you don't believe in such a thing as a 'Jekyll and Hyde' character, then I'm afraid you've never worked with schitzophrenics.
As for the examination of brain function by Xray and post mortem - I can't see the point either. MRI scans show brain response to stimuli, which is probably as close as we can get to physical diagnosis at the moment. That can't be done on a dead brain!
Yes, we do need new secure units. The old Victorian 'workhouse' type places used for the purpose were pretty grim. I remember one of my relatives being in one, and subject to regular ECT treatment. Barbaric - in the sense that when the effects wore off the aftereffects were terrifying to watch.
But this GG thing seems set to run for quite a while over here. What I really can't understand is why - if the guy IS of sound mind - he doesn't simply change his appearance and keep a low profile. Instead he continues to flaunt his 'fame' and image. That's what I find most disturbing. Is this an ego maniac, or a guy who really DOES believe that he is innocent?
As for the theory that abused children turn into abusing adults. Thankfully I haven't seen many clients who admit to having been abused as children, but those I do know are more likely to be suicidal and severely depressed. Still not a very pleasant outcome, and no doubt the tip of the iceburg.
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sargeant
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Let me state up front we as society and the lawmakers have an absolute moral responsibility to protect the weak and in particular the young
I wish deeply that there was a way to medically GUARANTEE that pedophiles will NOT re offend unfortunately there is NONE and until there is and it is proven beyond any doubt they do have a way to do it with guarantee then the ONLY way to guarantee the safety of children is to remove pedophiles from society completely. I feel exceedingly sorry for victims that become pedophiles themselves and it seems totally unfair to lock them up BUT it is the only way to stop the cancer growing and protect the innocent kids which is priority number one full stop period
Any other wishy washy PC DG Human right BS way is playing Russian roulette with other parents kids and their lives and that to me is morally incomprehensible
Having watched my now 16 year old boy being chased naye hounded by girls as young as 13 and not for his homework skill (luckily his fishing seemed to be more important) I know in spades that kids are sexually active a lot lot earlier than I remember and over here it seems it’s the girls that lead the chase.
Now I am going to stir a hornets nest I believe that the age of consent should be 15 fifteen years of age. From 15 to 18 there should not be any more than 2/3 years difference in age, If there is more than 2/3 years age difference it is statuatory rape. Over18 age difference is up to the individual.
BB I agree I was here but I will tell you most of the 14 year olds were 16 dressed down and some of them were for scams like petes and no I am not burying my head I am certain there were a fair few that were underage. It still doesn’t make it right though.
GG/PG was 61 years old with a 9 NINE year old and a 12 year old sorry that makes me puke.
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Big Boy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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sargeant wrote:
| Quote: | BB I agree I was here but I will tell you most of the 14 year olds were 16 dressed down and some of them were for scams like petes and no I am not burying my head I am certain there were a fair few that were underage. It still doesn’t make it right though.
GG/PG was 61 years old with a 9 NINE year old and a 12 year old sorry that makes me puke. |
Maybe we went in to different bars, but certainly I like to think I can tell the difference between a 13 year old and a 16 year old. In fact in most cases, the kids were dressing up, rather than down to make themselves look older (that way they might have picked a guy who was not specifically looking for kids if there were no Paedophiles about).
However, dressing up or down, scam or not, the point I was trying to make was that this problem was created in Asia by the Asians. As soon as the problem received bad publicity, and tourism cash was being affected, it became politically incorrect. Now we see the Asians playing ping pong with the victims they probably infected in the first place. They have very selective memory loss.
What was once a major tourist attraction a few years ago has now become a major headache, and Asia is expecting Western Governments to out this self inflicted mess.
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margaretcarnes
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: Gary Glitter refuses to board connecting flight in Bangkok |
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For once Sarge I agree with you! - on the 2/3 year age difference and statutory rape. It seems a very sensible idea, kids being kids, but could leave the courts with a bit of a dilemma and differing opinions I guess.
Age of consent 15? Not sure. That would surely mean lowering the legal age for marriage as well? I know the UK has a very high number of teenage pregnancies, and would guess most of them are girls of around 15. I just wonder how many of them would end up in unhappy marriages, doomed to failure, rather than take other options?
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sargeant
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Sorry for slow responce but not on top form Batt mott
BB i agree from foyer to my hotel room i was given a menu of sexual services that made me a 20 year hairy arsed squaddie blush some i had never heard of and most i have not heard of since but the blame game and there is plenty of it to go around solves nothing so i will say it again
NO buyers NO poverty = NO SELLERS
Mags i have not called for and disagree with castration, Lynching, mob violence or capital punishment (unless a child dies)all i have called for is the removal from society of these offenders.on first offence. I dont believe the holding places should be harsh but they should be 100% secure.
As for lowering the age of marriage why? it can stay the same they are 2 different entities to me personally i can see the logic in raising the marriage consent to 21 to stop it being a fashion statement for some or the thing to do for others
But i still dont accept 61 year old men with 9,10,11,12,13,14 year old kids it is on a par with 84 year old women being raped 
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Big Boy
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Sarge,
Hope you're feeling better.
I'm not disagreeing with anything you say, and removal to a safe zone on first offence is a good idea for most.
To explain my point, I will use an analogy - it is my opinion that the parents who sold their kids to the walking ATMs and the authorities who turned a blind eye were the drug dealers. The men (and women - yes, I knew women as well) who succumbed to temptation whilst on holiday, in a place where nobody else knew them (in an environment where it seemed to be legal) became the addicts ie I'll try one, it won't hurt ....................... they soon became addicted. They then returned each holiday to get their fix.
For these people, I do feel a little sympathy. These are the people who should be removed from temptation in your safe environment.
Obviously, not all Paedophiles succumbed to temptation in such a way. These are the hardened cases where castration may be appropriate.
As an aside, I'll never forget an incident that happened about 14 years ago whilst on holiday in Pattaya. My wife and I were having breakfast in our hotel when totally unannounced, one of the directors from work walked into the restaurant, closely followed by 2 young Thai boys. He didn't see me sat there, and sat down with the boys - they were quite close to under exaggerate the situation. When he noticed me, his face was a picture.
He didn't say a word to me on that holiday, even though our paths crossed several more times - the boys were in tow each time.
To this day we have still never talked, although he has looked a bit uneasy when he's seen me talking to his wife.
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